Is this considered illegal? - Page 2 - Guild Wars Forums

mrgoat · Dec 17, 2006, 10:53 PM // 22:53

I would argue that binding a key to /dance for you is not automating a gameplay function. Nor is binding a key to ctrl+shift+space. Automating requires a series of actions, gameplay actions, to be initiated by the user, then left to run their course without further intervention. Calling a target is one single action. Dancing is one single action.

I realize that's debatable, one could argue that each single keypress is a whole gameplay action by itself, and that typing enter, /, d,a,n,c,e, enter is in fact, eight seperate game functions, but I personally believe that view to be retarded.

I say the OP is in the clear, so long as the bound actions are simple, one game-function actions. If his quoted "xz" is "farm trolls for an hour", then it's bannination time. If "xz" is "spam WTS [thing I have my cursor over]", then it's both spam, and "Affecting conversation in a negative way". If it's "call this target", or "dance" then can't see how it conflicts with the ToS.

Performing one single game function cannot, by definition, be automation. If you think it can be, read the definition of "automate" until you understand.

The only point here left to be argued is wether or not each keypress constitutes a "game function". Hitting space is a user action, attacking is a game function. Hitting ctrl+space is one user action, and results in one game function. Hitting ctrl+shift+space is one user action, and results in one game function. Hitting w,w,w,a,a,a,a,w,w,w,w,w,space,1,2,4,2,1,4,2,1,2,4, 2,[move cursor],[double click],tab,space,1,2,4,2,1,3,2,1,2,4,2 etc. is many user actions, and many game functions, condensing that sequence to be initiated by one keypress would be automation.

Anyway, I think we've covered this in enough detail. The only sure way to have an answer is from someone from anet. I think it's fine for small, one-action functions. You think each keypress is a whole game function, regardless of what it performs. We both agree that stringing together any appreciable amount of game-affecting actions is worthy of action.

Fury Incarnate · Dec 18, 2006, 12:08 AM // 00:08

In theory, doesn't a keystroke macro do exactly the same thing as writing/using a keyboard driver that binds keys/key combinations to keys other than the "intended" ones?

This doesn't interact with the GW client, per se; It simply sends the computer a number of commands by pressing one key.

martialis · Dec 18, 2006, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Oh...my...God...

You're not allowed to buy characters and items on ebay and you're not allowed to bot. Of course you can use special functions on your keyboard. Email them if you want to check.

sigh...

Antheus is just making stuff up. Ignore it.

dargon · Dec 18, 2006, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrgoat

What constitutes a "special" driver? Some hardware doesn't work at all with generic drivers. If it's the only driver that drives that piece of equipment, is it "special"? I would argue it is not.

Also, I would've thought that the assassin combo macro would indeed, be "bad".

When I refered to special driver, this is the rule I was refering to. This is taken from the World Championship Rules page on the GW site, http://www.guildwars.com/competitive...ship-rules.php

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANet

Guilds will play in a time and location chosen by ArenaNet, on hardware provided by ArenaNet. ArenaNet will provide noise-canceling headsets and access to a voice-communication system in order to allow team communication during matches. Players will be permitted to bring their own keyboard and/or mouse, but both must be standard USB devices, and no drivers may be installed to enable or enhance their use. All players must be physically present for each match, and may not use any of their own software during the match. A player may not access web-browsers or other external programs while playing or between matches.

As for what constitutes legal and illegal software basically boils down to the following with regards to standard play (as I mentioned above, the rules can be more strict in an official tournament setting). If you run a program that monitors ingame events and makes decisions on it's own based upon ingame data, such as waypoints on the mini-map, you are breaking the rules. If your keyboard, mouse, etc allows for macros such as, I press button F1 and that acts like I've typed 1234, that is allowable (generally speaking). So long as you are physically involved in actually playing the game, keyboard macros are perfectly fine. It's when you are not actively involved in the game, ie you have a program running that types WTS Rare Crystaline 15>50 Sword every 10 seconds, whether or not you are at the computer, then you are breaching the rules and can get your account terminated.

mrgoat · Dec 18, 2006, 05:34 AM // 05:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fury Incarnate

In theory, doesn't a keystroke macro do exactly the same thing as writing/using a keyboard driver that binds keys/key combinations to keys other than the "intended" ones?

This doesn't interact with the GW client, per se; It simply sends the computer a number of commands by pressing one key.

Yes, this is exactly what it does. However, bots do exactly the same things. They send... a combination of keys... to the guild wars client. Technically speaking, there's no real difference between a very complex "keystroke macro" and a "Bot". In fact, a bot is exactly that: a long, complicated keystroke macro. It's possible that there'd be some decision making code included, but that's much harder to write, and for a bot, the only real goal is repeatability. No one really writes anything conditional into bots beyond the code for "how I get out of city". Bots are, in practice, long macros.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dargon

When I refered to special driver, this is the rule I was refering to. This is taken from the World Championship Rules page on the GW site, http://www.guildwars.com/competitive...ship-rules.php

Quote:
Originally Posted by ANet
Guilds will play in a time and location chosen by ArenaNet, on hardware provided by ArenaNet. ArenaNet will provide noise-canceling headsets and access to a voice-communication system in order to allow team communication during matches. Players will be permitted to bring their own keyboard and/or mouse, but both must be standard USB devices, and no drivers may be installed to enable or enhance their use. All players must be physically present for each match, and may not use any of their own software during the match. A player may not access web-browsers or other external programs while playing or between matches.

If the quote is correct, and no drivers may be installed to enable or enhance the use of keyboards or mice, then championship matches must be very boring indeed, with no one able to move or use skills. Drivers are the software that enables the use of hardware. Without a driver of some kind, your hardware may as well be a lump of plastic; your OS can't do crap with it. I'd hate to make it all the way to the championships only to be told that I may not enable the use of my keyboard, mouse, or any other input device to play.

I imagine that's very inconvenient. I hope arenanet reads the words they put to print. How do those matches play out? Does everyone just wait for VoD and let the npc's duke it out at the flag stand, or do they break the rules and somehow manage to not get disqualified?

I guess this is all kind of silly, but I can't resist pointing out when people think they are saying what they mean, when in reality, what they say means different than they mean. Language is friggin important people! It's the only way you can be understood. USE IT.

dargon · Dec 18, 2006, 06:03 AM // 06:03

Mr Goat, you are taking that a little to literally, windows has default keyboard and mouse drivers. Plug in any keyboard or any mouse into windows and it'll function as a keyboard or mouse. However certain mice and certain keyboard require special drivers to access special functionality within them. As an example, compare the wolfking warrior gamepad (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16823146004) and the ideazon FANG gamepad (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...2E16823161023). The FANG comes with a special cd with special drivers, that allow you to map the keys to different characters or combinations of characters. The Wolfking on the otherhand, acts just like your normal everyday keyboard, except it has a different layout and doesn't have all the letters.

As for ANets wording, it's perfectly fine, you are allowed to bring your own keyboard and mouse and plug them into the machines ANet / NCSoft have already setup (which includes windows default drivers), you're just not allowed to install any software that could potentially give you an advantage over another player.

jimmy_logic · Dec 18, 2006, 06:22 AM // 06:22

Straight from the horses mouth...

"...You agree not to use any hardware or software, including but not limited to third party tools, or any other method of support which may in any way influence or advantage your use of the Service which is not authorized by NC Interactive, including but not limited to the use of 'bots' and/or any other method by which the Service may be played automatically without human input..."

In lay man terms a program that automates the game so there is no human input. Third Party Tools in that paragraphs generalises all tools but later on it goes into specifics terms. So keyboard macros are ok as long as they dont automate playing without your input. So basically general action ---> specific example of what is meant by that term.

How this works... go pull out any home contents insurance terms and conditions. Look under say for example "Fire" you would think it covers fires and all fire related damage but later on it may say only where the damage is caused by direct flame and not smoke damage. See General then specific.

Just because it says flat out you can't use them, but you must read it in context with the intention of the writer. If it meant all tools there would be no need for the second part about bots etc.

For those that may say third party tools can influence matches (GvG)... I would like you to post a scenario where some one can write a macro that would cover all situations that would warrant bannage. I don't think anyone can... thats the beauty of GW the metagame and the vast amount of combos that can be used not one person or guild can write a macro that can chain a set of skills together to gain an unfair advantage.

So I think its safe to say you can use keyboard macros as long as they aren't part of an automation system where you can play the game without you not actually being there.

Just my 0.02cents

EDIT *** This is in reply to the OP and not the sub topic of bring third party things to tournaments and such ***

FoxBat · Dec 18, 2006, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Now you find out.... american software litigation is a poorly defined and thought out morass, and EULAs are toilet paper.

They won't even think of banning you unless they log on and see you are doing something really annoying/bad with it. No way the client can detect driver-level things (thats how "wallhacks" got/gets around those punkbusters in FPS)

If bots need to scan the GW memory to get around, that's another level of intrusiveness. If it modifies that memory to interact rather than sending keystrokes, that's yet another level.

Bots are rarely banned as is, so not like it really matters.

strcpy · Dec 18, 2006, 09:07 AM // 09:07

This type of EULA pretty much makes everyone in violation of it so they do not need a *legal* reason to ban. Reality, of course, is something different. Random bans for no real reason means no one plays their game. It is standard in EULA's to do this. In the end they can simply point to that clause that you agreed on and point out it is "3'rd party" no matter what software you used.

Yes, by strict reading (yes, they also give specific examples but point out it is *not* limited too, whereas your insurance *is* limiting it) your mouse driver, Teamspeak, Vent, video driver, etc is infringing - it is all 3'rd party and interacting with GW (even if the game itself is requesting such a thing). If you are using it to play GW in any way it is interacting with - especially true if it is sending it keyboard/mouse actions or reading/displaying the graphics.

There is no difference, from the game mechanics points of view, of someone using a bot and some person sitting on a keyboard - they both interact with the game at the same level. In fact, I highly suspect that Anet uses quite a few automated testing tools - I know I do in the software I produce (and there are packages that can mimic pretty much any interface).

Though, in the end EULA's and these type of clauses have not really been tested in court yet. It will most likely be many many years before they are (and will most likely loose). They are too broad and there is no negotiation on the contract. In a sense, it is like the signs on the back of dump trucks: "please stay 500 feet away, not responsible for falling objects". Well, yes, you are. It's mostly put there because most will read it and move on if they violate it.

Personally, I wouldn't hesitate to use said macros. They are trying to ban bots, not that type of thing. If you are at the top end of the ladder I would hesitate using much of anything (they may care then, plus you can not use it in the tournaments you would be trying to enter), but that is a special case. I do not see how they could detect it anyway. Anet uses this for bots, which you are not remotely doing.

As for answers from their support e-mail - be careful there also. Even was this coming from Gail herself I wouldn't - those teams and the ones that ban are quite different teams (note that she is wrong from time to time because of misunderstanding between teams - and no, I do not think they are lies). Especially support - IIRC that is ncsoft and is most likely low paid people trying to get you off their backs. Pretty much anyone that has been a manager on a large project knows what I mean, even outside of software.

In the end, take this as a sorta lawyer answer - any third party program violates the TOS. Even further any automation tools do as they are specifically stated. No matter what - that is the final and official position. However, from a "reality" position not only can they not tell you are using what you describe, also if they ban that type of thing and are that strict they will not have a user base. They have stated over and over that they seek to ban bots that require little to no human interface to play the game, nothing else. I would believe them and use one were I interested.

kosh · Dec 18, 2006, 11:09 AM // 11:09

ok enough of this!!1

this is not a thread about how legal to use a keyorad/key assign to dance emo/zborad/ or wheaver!!

again any 3rd party prog is illegal that simple.
if you use that prog u might get banned.

plz close this.
p.s im so sry ofr trooing or w/e but you pips go so of subject. if u want you want ot make thread about this subject then fine. but the man just ask a simple Q.

martialis · Dec 18, 2006, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Just to add to the trash-talking the EULA, the EULA is not legally binding in any meaningful sense. Anet can ban you (or ban everyone, or stop hosting their game) whenever they want, for any reason they want or no reason at all. (And every online game I can think of has the same rights.)

So the rules about bots, etc. are just guidelines of how Anet would like you to play, and if you follow them then you probably won't get banned. There is no official definition of 'third party program'. It means whatever they want it to, and they've said that a keyboard macro and an operating system are not third party programs.

So thank goodness for that.

mrgoat · Dec 18, 2006, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by kosh

ok enough of this!!1

this is not a thread about how legal to use a keyorad/key assign to dance emo/zborad/ or wheaver!!

again any 3rd party prog is illegal that simple.
if you use that prog u might get banned.

plz close this.
p.s im so sry ofr trooing or w/e but you pips go so of subject. if u want you want ot make thread about this subject then fine. but the man just ask a simple Q.

Sir, I will troo whatever pips I please. A simple "Q" can have a complex "A", ofr we troo ot emo, zborad!

Now if you will excuse me, I believe I have some progs to wheave. Sry!

Dec 18, 2006, 12:16 AM // 00:16	#23
martialis Lion's Arch Merchant Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: RA, reporting you	Oh...my...God... You're not allowed to buy characters and items on ebay and you're not allowed to bot. Of course you can use special functions on your keyboard. Email them if you want to check. sigh... Antheus is just making stuff up. Ignore it. Last edited by martialis; Dec 18, 2006 at 12:23 AM // 00:23..

Dec 18, 2006, 11:09 AM // 11:09	#30
kosh Krytan Explorer Join Date: Dec 2005 Guild: hydrponic agriculture society [Herb] Profession: Mo/	stop!! ok enough of this!!1 this is not a thread about how legal to use a keyorad/key assign to dance emo/zborad/ or wheaver!! again any 3rd party prog is illegal that simple. if you use that prog u might get banned. plz close this. p.s im so sry ofr trooing or w/e but you pips go so of subject. if u want you want ot make thread about this subject then fine. but the man just ask a simple Q. Last edited by kosh; Dec 18, 2006 at 11:13 AM // 11:13..

Dec 17, 2006, 10:53 PM // 22:53	#21
mrgoat Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Jul 2006	I would argue that binding a key to /dance for you is not automating a gameplay function. Nor is binding a key to ctrl+shift+space. Automating requires a series of actions, gameplay actions, to be initiated by the user, then left to run their course without further intervention. Calling a target is one single action. Dancing is one single action. I realize that's debatable, one could argue that each single keypress is a whole gameplay action by itself, and that typing enter, /, d,a,n,c,e, enter is in fact, eight seperate game functions, but I personally believe that view to be retarded. I say the OP is in the clear, so long as the bound actions are simple, one game-function actions. If his quoted "xz" is "farm trolls for an hour", then it's bannination time. If "xz" is "spam WTS [thing I have my cursor over]", then it's both spam, and "Affecting conversation in a negative way". If it's "call this target", or "dance" then can't see how it conflicts with the ToS. Performing one single game function cannot, by definition, be automation. If you think it can be, read the definition of "automate" until you understand. The only point here left to be argued is wether or not each keypress constitutes a "game function". Hitting space is a user action, attacking is a game function. Hitting ctrl+space is one user action, and results in one game function. Hitting ctrl+shift+space is one user action, and results in one game function. Hitting w,w,w,a,a,a,a,w,w,w,w,w,space,1,2,4,2,1,4,2,1,2,4, 2,[move cursor],[double click],tab,space,1,2,4,2,1,3,2,1,2,4,2 etc. is many user actions, and many game functions, condensing that sequence to be initiated by one keypress would be automation. Anyway, I think we've covered this in enough detail. The only sure way to have an answer is from someone from anet. I think it's fine for small, one-action functions. You think each keypress is a whole game function, regardless of what it performs. We both agree that stringing together any appreciable amount of game-affecting actions is worthy of action.

Dec 18, 2006, 12:08 AM // 00:08	#22
Fury Incarnate Lion's Arch Merchant Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Connecticut, USA Profession: R/	In theory, doesn't a keystroke macro do exactly the same thing as writing/using a keyboard driver that binds keys/key combinations to keys other than the "intended" ones? This doesn't interact with the GW client, per se; It simply sends the computer a number of commands by pressing one key.

Dec 18, 2006, 06:03 AM // 06:03	#26
dargon Furnace Stoker Join Date: May 2005 Guild: The Seraphim Knights [TSK] Profession: R/	Mr Goat, you are taking that a little to literally, windows has default keyboard and mouse drivers. Plug in any keyboard or any mouse into windows and it'll function as a keyboard or mouse. However certain mice and certain keyboard require special drivers to access special functionality within them. As an example, compare the wolfking warrior gamepad (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16823146004) and the ideazon FANG gamepad (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...2E16823161023). The FANG comes with a special cd with special drivers, that allow you to map the keys to different characters or combinations of characters. The Wolfking on the otherhand, acts just like your normal everyday keyboard, except it has a different layout and doesn't have all the letters. As for ANets wording, it's perfectly fine, you are allowed to bring your own keyboard and mouse and plug them into the machines ANet / NCSoft have already setup (which includes windows default drivers), you're just not allowed to install any software that could potentially give you an advantage over another player.

Dec 18, 2006, 06:22 AM // 06:22	#27
jimmy_logic Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Sep 2005 Profession: R/	Straight from the horses mouth... "...You agree not to use any hardware or software, including but not limited to third party tools, or any other method of support which may in any way influence or advantage your use of the Service which is not authorized by NC Interactive, including but not limited to the use of 'bots' and/or any other method by which the Service may be played automatically without human input..." In lay man terms a program that automates the game so there is no human input. Third Party Tools in that paragraphs generalises all tools but later on it goes into specifics terms. So keyboard macros are ok as long as they dont automate playing without your input. So basically general action ---> specific example of what is meant by that term. How this works... go pull out any home contents insurance terms and conditions. Look under say for example "Fire" you would think it covers fires and all fire related damage but later on it may say only where the damage is caused by direct flame and not smoke damage. See General then specific. Just because it says flat out you can't use them, but you must read it in context with the intention of the writer. If it meant all tools there would be no need for the second part about bots etc. For those that may say third party tools can influence matches (GvG)... I would like you to post a scenario where some one can write a macro that would cover all situations that would warrant bannage. I don't think anyone can... thats the beauty of GW the metagame and the vast amount of combos that can be used not one person or guild can write a macro that can chain a set of skills together to gain an unfair advantage. So I think its safe to say you can use keyboard macros as long as they aren't part of an automation system where you can play the game without you not actually being there. Just my 0.02cents EDIT * This is in reply to the OP and not the sub topic of bring third party things to tournaments and such *

Dec 18, 2006, 07:24 AM // 07:24	#28
FoxBat Furnace Stoker Join Date: Apr 2006 Guild: Amazon Basin [AB] Profession: Mo/Me	Now you find out.... american software litigation is a poorly defined and thought out morass, and EULAs are toilet paper. They won't even think of banning you unless they log on and see you are doing something really annoying/bad with it. No way the client can detect driver-level things (thats how "wallhacks" got/gets around those punkbusters in FPS) If bots need to scan the GW memory to get around, that's another level of intrusiveness. If it modifies that memory to interact rather than sending keystrokes, that's yet another level. Bots are rarely banned as is, so not like it really matters.

Dec 18, 2006, 09:07 AM // 09:07	#29
strcpy Desert Nomad Join Date: Jul 2005 Guild: One of Many [ONE]	This type of EULA pretty much makes everyone in violation of it so they do not need a legal reason to ban. Reality, of course, is something different. Random bans for no real reason means no one plays their game. It is standard in EULA's to do this. In the end they can simply point to that clause that you agreed on and point out it is "3'rd party" no matter what software you used. Yes, by strict reading (yes, they also give specific examples but point out it is not limited too, whereas your insurance is limiting it) your mouse driver, Teamspeak, Vent, video driver, etc is infringing - it is all 3'rd party and interacting with GW (even if the game itself is requesting such a thing). If you are using it to play GW in any way it is interacting with - especially true if it is sending it keyboard/mouse actions or reading/displaying the graphics. There is no difference, from the game mechanics points of view, of someone using a bot and some person sitting on a keyboard - they both interact with the game at the same level. In fact, I highly suspect that Anet uses quite a few automated testing tools - I know I do in the software I produce (and there are packages that can mimic pretty much any interface). Though, in the end EULA's and these type of clauses have not really been tested in court yet. It will most likely be many many years before they are (and will most likely loose). They are too broad and there is no negotiation on the contract. In a sense, it is like the signs on the back of dump trucks: "please stay 500 feet away, not responsible for falling objects". Well, yes, you are. It's mostly put there because most will read it and move on if they violate it. Personally, I wouldn't hesitate to use said macros. They are trying to ban bots, not that type of thing. If you are at the top end of the ladder I would hesitate using much of anything (they may care then, plus you can not use it in the tournaments you would be trying to enter), but that is a special case. I do not see how they could detect it anyway. Anet uses this for bots, which you are not remotely doing. As for answers from their support e-mail - be careful there also. Even was this coming from Gail herself I wouldn't - those teams and the ones that ban are quite different teams (note that she is wrong from time to time because of misunderstanding between teams - and no, I do not think they are lies). Especially support - IIRC that is ncsoft and is most likely low paid people trying to get you off their backs. Pretty much anyone that has been a manager on a large project knows what I mean, even outside of software. In the end, take this as a sorta lawyer answer - any third party program violates the TOS. Even further any automation tools do as they are specifically stated. No matter what - that is the final and official position. However, from a "reality" position not only can they not tell you are using what you describe, also if they ban that type of thing and are that strict they will not have a user base. They have stated over and over that they seek to ban bots that require little to no human interface to play the game, nothing else. I would believe them and use one were I interested.

Dec 18, 2006, 06:08 PM // 18:08	#31
martialis Lion's Arch Merchant Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: RA, reporting you	Just to add to the trash-talking the EULA, the EULA is not legally binding in any meaningful sense. Anet can ban you (or ban everyone, or stop hosting their game) whenever they want, for any reason they want or no reason at all. (And every online game I can think of has the same rights.) So the rules about bots, etc. are just guidelines of how Anet would like you to play, and if you follow them then you probably won't get banned. There is no official definition of 'third party program'. It means whatever they want it to, and they've said that a keyboard macro and an operating system are not third party programs. So thank goodness for that.